Sniper Country Duty Roster collective wisdom


Handguns - Glock:


Re: Negligent Discharges, Training, and Glocks... Our local department had several NDs with Glocks in the first couple years, resulting in additional mandatory training for all those that carry Glocks. The study found that most of the time the officer INTENDED to pull the trigger; they just didn't intend for it to go off (can you say pulling the trigger prior to breaking it down?). Nevertheless, we were required to have the 8 lb triggers installed. The ND rate went down - but because of the training, not because of the triggers. For those that bemoan how dangerous the Glock is, I point out they probably don't like revolvers then either... sorry to stir the pot again...
Mark Thomen <thomen@ibm.net>
USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 08:14:31 (ZULU) 


Thomen,
Wheelguns, wasamatter with wheel guns? Rules one and appendix "A."? Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy, and You fight as you train. A Ohier Fly-Boy with a Glock is nowhere near as dangerous as a highly trained Hillbilly with a K-frame! Oops, is more dangerous!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 13:41:04 (ZULU) 


Mark Thomen
Mark, I'm one of the guys that thinks the Glock is dangerous. I own two Glocks, 9mm & .45 and have fired thousands of rounds through them. The standard trigger on a Glock is around 5lbs the trigger on most revolvers when the hammer is cocked is almost 5 lbs. Carrying a revolver with the hammer locked back would be insane. The Glock, being cocked whenever a round is chambered and having no safety is an accident waiting to happen. I'm talking about police use not a fun afternoon at the range. Police are often in a mind numbing situation where their heart is racing and their adrennalin pump is working at it's max. A sudden noise or movement could cause the cop to involuntarily tense his muscles for a second possibly firing the Glock. A double action trigger pull on an auto or a revolver takes a long heavy pull that must be deliberate.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 16:53:32 (ZULU) 
Kodiak: No offense intended, but I think people that have safety problems with the standard Glock triggers need some serious remedial training. I'm not a cop, but a Glock 30 is my daily carry weapon. I generally go into withdrawals if I don't fire at least 100 rounds a month. Maybe this is more than the average cop, I hope not. If someone has problems with a Glock trigger, I'd sure hate to see them with a 1911 variant.
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 05:30:27 (ZULU) 
Kodiak:
A few quick facts about Glock pistols and general gun safety/tactics.
Re: "the Glock being cocked whenever a round is chambered and having no safety..."
The Glock is similar to a double action only pistol meaning that the firearm is not cocked until the trigger is pulled to the rear. As for safeties the Glock pistol has three. 1) trigger safety-that little piece of plastic in the center of the trigger that prevents trigger from being pulled if it snags an the lips of a holster or anything else. 2) firing pin safety-internal, stops the firing pin from protruding through the bolt face unless the trigger is pulled to the rear. 3) drop safety-internal, prevents the firing pin from being pulled back and released (by something other than the trigger bar, ie. if the gun was dropped) unless the trigger is pulled to the rear. These safeties prevent the gun from going off unless the trigger is pulled deliberatly.
Re: "could cause the cop to involuntarily tense his muscles for a second possibly firing the Glock"
This scenerio could only happen if the cop or had his finger on the trigger. This is why we cannot stress enough both in teaching shooters gun safety as well as teaching LE, military, SF, etc. that your finger does not touch the trigger until you are ready to fire. If you inadvertently fire a weapon then you obviously were not ready to fire. If you have your finger on the trigger of any firearm you run the chance of discharging it inadvertently. With the Glock, if you don't pull the trigger the gun will not go off.
As for the weight of the trigger pull in the Glock, Glock makes several heavier springs for the trigger to adjust it to feel like a double action revolver. If you are interested in this feel free to E-mail me and I will be happy to give you more information on it.I am a gunsmith and a Glock certified armorer so feel free to ask questions.
c211 <c211@juno.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 13:52:30 (ZULU) 
Kodiak,
I wasn't going to get into this debate on pistols but I feel your dead wrong on the Glock. I have put to manys round through both the 45 and 9mm to count and I have the light triggers in mine and there is no way you will have an AD with out pulling the trigger and know your pulling it. I have and have had SW wheel guns that when cocked to fire single action would go off with only the slightest touch of the finger and no Glock of mine has ever done that.
Pat <mrullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 14:37:24 (ZULU) 
"If someone has problems with a Glock trigger, I'd sure hate to see them with a 1911 variant" you have to go through alot more to get a 1911 to fire than a Glock, fully depress grip safety, depress thumb safety, pull trigger. with proper training they are both safe.

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 15:16:47 (ZULU) 


Kodiak; I once posted here that I had a Glock that was a accident waiting to happen. That was because it was unreliable ignition. That trigger is radical for sure but I really have to say I think it is safe as a double action. I've come bout as close to shooting them off with a 1911 by forgetting to go safe on a cocked hammer. I got rid of the .45 glock cause it would only function with factory stuff and discovered HK's USP. But never could find one that carried as good as the Glock. I went to a .40 glock as a open carry piece/car gun for the reason of their weight mostly but I still don't carry it hot unless it's holstered good.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 16:06:36 (ZULU) 
Glocks: There are a lot of Glock lovers out there so I knew I would step on some toes with my message.

Mike Obrien: Mike, most cops, even though they don't practice as much as they should are trained to be safe with their weapons. Where do you draw the line? Put a 1 lb trigger on the Glock and require more training?

c211: What I meant by the Glock being cocked when a round is in the chamber was that the spring is already pre-loaded and it only takes a little more pressure to fire the gun. As far as the Glocks safeties go. I personally know a cop who took off his gun belt, hung it up on the hook in his locker and changed clothes to go out. When left he slammed the locker door it hit the holster and the Glock fired.
When your in a tense situation on the street your finger will most likely be in the trigger guard even if it's not on the trigger. You'll be so wired up at the moment that anything might cause you to dump a load in your pants and accidentelly fire the gun.
The danger I speak of in the Glock is with the standard tigger, I know that heavier springs are available. I think they should be required for police depts.

Pat: The danger of accidentally firing the Glock is not at the range it's in a fast moving, sphyncter muscle tightening police incident. The revolvers that you spoke of obviosly don't have standard triggers and besides in police work you shouldn't go into a situation with the hammer locked back anyway.

Rich: The grip safety on a 1911 model doesn't require a seperate motion, as soon as you grab the gun you work the safety. The thumb safety takes only a fraction of a second.

Six years ago I went on a gang fight call, as I arrived I heard four shots. There were people running everywhere. I caught up with four gangbangers after a short foot chase. I ordered them all face down on the ground with their hands behind their head. Three obeyed but one didn't. Witnesses yelled to me that he was the one with the gun.
The punk wouldn't take his hands away from his side which made me REALLY nervous. Finally he reached into his jacket pocket and started pulling something out. At that time I carried a S&W model 19. It felt like somebody kicked me in the stomach as I realized that I was about to kill someone. I felt the hammer coming back. All of a sudden another squad that just pulled up shined his spotlight in the punks face. The kid said "OK man OK" and gave up. It turns out that he had a starter pistol that shot blanks and just wanted to show me that it wasn't a real gun. If I had a Glock in that incident the kid would be dead. The shooting would have been justified but I'd still have to live with the fact that I killed this kid.

Sorry this was so long. Please dont anyone take offense at my dislike of Glocks.

Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 20:45:12 (ZULU) 


Kodiak: No offence taken on the Glocks and none is intended in your direction. I used to carry a Ruger P89 and then a P90 for much the same reasons as you have described. That long heavy trigger pull, (for the first shot), was comforting to me then. As I gained more experience and training I switched to a 1911 variant because making the transition from that long trigger pull for the first shot to a short light squeeze for subsequent shots was too difficult for me under stress. The additional training I sought out when switching to the 1911 convinced me that the previously comforting long trigger pull was nothing more than a crutch that I should never have used in the first place. I resisted buying a Glock for many years because I "heard" many stories similar to what you have related and worse. It seems to me that most of the horror stories were caused poor weapon handling practices and a few defective weapons. I finally switched to my present Glock 30 because I wanted something more conceal able and my 1911 puked, (shot the barrel out). In my humble but somewhat overrated opinion, the Glock is as safe and reliable as any other high quality pistol. It's not for everyone, but that's why there's other manufacturers. And, as stated many times before on this site, it's not the weapon, but rather the man behind it that makes the real difference.
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 10:13:20 (ZULU) 
Kodiak;You guys mention the trigger pull. That is one of the real advantages of Glock along with the Smooth frame that "tucks" so well.

It's not the pull which kinda sucks and has to be learned but the fact that it is the same. Way back when Revolvers were the only option unless you wanted to carry a 1911 many shooters trained themselves (as you know) to shoot DA only for the theory that the pull needed to be the same. When Smith Came out with the 645 (.45acp) auto. I tried to master the long pull and then the single action and found it a total nusiance. Hence my love for USP that can operate either mode.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 14:24:12 (ZULU)  
Kodiak,
I had to throw in my two cents on this great glock debate. A 5lb. trigger in my opinion is quite sufficiently heavy for tactical situations. I can say this with confidence, because anyone with tactical training, (and if you are carrying a gun for any reason, I should hope you have) knows one of the foremost safety rules is to keep your finger straight and off the trigger. If you hold to this rule, than no matter how tense your muscles are, you should have no problem with negligent discharges. If you cannot keep your finger off the trigger, then leave the gun in the range bag. If you are a proffesional, and practice regularly with your weapon, then there should be no problem. If you are the kind of officer who only fires their weapon for qualification or when your department demands it, then shame on you. There is no excuse for blaming human error on the weapon system. My weapon of choice is a colt Combat Commander. When I draw, the safety comes off as the weapon is presented. The finger rests on the forward portion of the trigger guard until the target is aquired. Then it drops to the trigger. The bottom line is adhear to the four safety rules and you can NEVER EVER NEGLIGENTLY SHOOT SOMEONE.
1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
2. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot
3. Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire.
4. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.

Sorry, I had to vent. Keep shooting and Stay safe.

John <snlper@aol.com>
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 20:08:50 (ZULU)  


Kodiak, don't get me wrong, I don't like Glocks either, they have too much trigger creep and they always point high for me. I know depressing the grip safety of a 1911 is a consequence of taking a firing grip on the pistol. What I was getting at is if you have drawn and properly griped the pistol-depressing the grip safety, and placed you finger on the trigger and taken up the slack, you have gone through alot more than you would to get a glock to go bang.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 00:27:52 (ZULU)  

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