Sniper Country Duty Roster collective wisdom


Rifles - M1 Garand:


OK so this isn't "really" a sniper weapon question but so many things here tend not to be - what do you'all think about the reliable old M-1 Garand? What is your experience with it and what is the cost in your area? And NO I'm not looking to go the CMP route my local shop has one in pretty good condition at the same price as CMP without all the BS from CMP! Yes I've been to Fulton Armory's site and a few others as well I'm looking for real world info here not advertisments! Thanks group!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 14:18:03 (EST) 


Sarge: My father was a veteran of many battles fought with a M-1 rifle and he thought it was designed by God. I am a veteran of many Rifles and few battles and I think it was a mistake if God had anything to do with it. It is a good way to remember glorious battles of long ago but as a modern day weapon. (Sorry Dad!) It is much lacking. The front sight is loose enough to prevent good accuracy unless you install the National Match equipment on it. The rear sight is always somewhere but where you want to be (in field conditions or clogged with mud) That operating rod is a POS unless you monitor it closely it will let you down. Damn thing is heavier than a scoped sniper rifle and half of that is packing crate wood! You must use the proper powder in them or they will shatter the stock or bend the rod. Slow burning powder is an accident waiting to happen. A soldier can be trained to assemble and disassemble one in about 6 weeks if he doesn't loose his fingers trying to close the bolt. Those 10 shot clips have only one purpose and that is to alert the enemy that your out of ammunition which you usually are because the stuff weighs too much to use in a semiauto. Patton said it was the best battle instrument ever devised and at the time he said it.... It probably was but times have changed.
It is made for one thing and that's to throw lots of heavy bullets down range and keep doing it till the barrel melts down. But a sniper rifle it ain't. Course you didn't say it was! God I get in a lot of trouble for things like this. Fidabeenthere I would have wanted a 1903 Springfield with a 4 power on it. Now there was a rifle! Happy New Year!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 15:33:51 (EST) 
Sarge,
Memories, memories. US Rifle, caliber .30, M-1, a 9 1/2 pound, gas operated, clip fed, semi-automatic, shoulder weapon, sir! As I used to shout back at my Marine Gunney D.I.
I first shot a Garand in high school summer ROTC camp back in the 50's. I was so small I couldn't shoot it offhand; but I did fairly well prone. I have loved the bloody thing ever since. I carried one when I was a cadet in Navy pilot training at Pensacola,FL during the summer of 61 and learned to hate carrying it in the July sun. It will definitely bite the thumb that feeds it if you aren't careful and the 8 round en-block clip does tell everyone around that it's empty; but for an all around fun toy you can't beat it, plus it is definitely a historic piece of America's past. As B. Rogers said, it isn';t a sniper rifle. I bought my last one back around 1985 or 86 and gave $600 for it. It's a cherry Winchester and shoots pretty well. The Nineteenth Edition Blue Book shows $700 for one in 98% condition. I haven't seen one for sale around here in a very long time so don't know whether that's a realistic figure or not.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
Digging out from under the blizzard in the Ozark boonies, MO USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 20:19:34 (EST) 
I'm caught in my error. It is of course 8 shots in the M1 clips. Can't remember if it's been 10 years or 8 since I shot one! It will probably be that long before I shoot one again. Seriously I'm not meaning to deamean that old battle weapon but it did have a few shortcomings and I want the casual readers and those who tune in to learn to get the facts..... Thanks Pablito for correcting me!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 01:09:20 (EST) 
To; Sarge; M1 Garand a Sniper Rifle? I have a Garand I got from the old DCM several years ago. Since then, it has been rebuilt by Springfield Armory into an "Ultra-match" rifle. Using Federal Match ammo, and my 70 year old eyes, I can get 1&1/4 inch, 5 shot groups. Not satified with that, this past summer, I had a Burris 10X handgun scope mounted scout style. It shoots 3/4 inch 5 shot groups. I call it my M1E. A natural successor to the militarys' M1C & M1D, but far more accurate. The side-mounted scopes on the military sniper rifles were difficult to shoot, in my estimation. If you were sighted in at 2 hundred yards, then had to take a shot at 3 hundred yards, you would miss, unless you were really good at "Kentucky windage." Remember, the line of sight of the scope, and line of sight of the bore had to converge at 2 hundred yards in order to hit your target. Of course, out at 3 hundred yards, your bullet would pass off to the left of the target. I learned to love this old battle rifle over fifty-two years ago, as a member of Plt. #32, 2nd Recruit Bn., Parris Island, S.C.
Semper Fi; Leatherneck
Leatherneck <dan_macphee@yahoo.com>
Avon, Ma., USA - Wednesday, January 27, 1999 at 21:09:15 (ZULU) 
I got my M1D from CMP and it's in NEW, UN-ISSUED CONDITION, I have never seen one like this! I got it Friday and I am going to shoot it this week if the weather clears. It cmae with a cone flash hider which I hate so I ordered a T37 prong flash hider and a good manual that should be here by the end of the week. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions for the M1D? I haven't shot one in many, many years and I'm open to any thoughts on it.

Gramps
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.com>
Old Folks Home, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 07:39:24 (ZULU) 


Gramps: Bear in mind that if that DCM/CMP M1-D is really new, unissued, that taking it to the range and shooting it will probably lower the value a lot. Losing the DCM papers and box will also lower the value substantially. Personally, I believe that guns are made to be shot, so if I had won an unissued M1-D and I wanted to shoot one, I'd probably sell the perfect one, buy a used one to go shooting with, and pocket the potentially large dollar difference. Of course, with anything that has "collector value" the price could vary a lot.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 19:16:39 (ZULU) 


Dave: Thanks for the info! I know that the box and paperwork must be kept and also that the value will go down when I shoot it but when I have a weapon, any weapon, it's for shooting, not for looks! This one is without a doubt new and un-issued. When I broke it down I verified that. The stock is new and not scratched with deep cartuches,(spelling), all metal is new, the bore is new, the scope is new, all parts were in individual bags with tags and had never been opened. I've already been offered $3,000.00 and a rifle from a collector who is begging me for it and not to shoot it but it's not for sale at any price!

Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:56:35 (ZULU) 


QUESTION FOR ALL: Does anyone have any idea on the correct positioning of the leather cheek piece for the M1D? It seems to have two screw holes that line up with two of the gromments in the unit but if they are used it seems that the pad would be really high, any ideas?

Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 01:23:22 (ZULU)  


Gramps,
Since none of the experts want to answer your question about the cheekpad on the M1D, I'll take a stab at it. The cheekpad is properly installed on the side of the stock, not on the top of the comb. The scope on this rifle is offset to the left and the cheekpad is just to move the face over to the direction of the scope. If you are trying to set it on the top of the comb, you are going in the wrong direction.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 00:30:12 (ZULU) 


Steve: Thanks for the answer. I am aware that you need to off set your head on the M1D but when you line up the holes that are in the cheek pad with the armory drilled holes in the stock it puts most of the pad on the comb. I was wondering if I had a bad cheek piece or if the holes had no bearing at all on the installation of the pad. If not I wonder what they are for? I'm an M-21 man and we had no need for pads so it's new to me. I'm looking for a manual for the M1D and have had no luck so far, IF ANYONE HAS ONE OR KNOWS WHERE TO GET ONE PLEASE ADVISE!!!!!!!!!!!

Out here

(And thanks again for the reply)! Might I add the ONLY reply!
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 05:14:31 (ZULU) 


OK Kids, some of you REAL old guys, (even older that me), cough up the answer to the M1D cheek piece, do the arsenal drilled holes match up with the holes in the cheek pad or not? Also WHERE THE HELL CAN I GET A MANUAL FOR THE M1D? COME ON NOW I KNOW SOMEONE OUT THERE KNOWS THE ANSWER AND HAS THE MANUAL!

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.com>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 00:53:57 (ZULU) 


Grampster,

dude, according to Scott Duff "The M-1 Garand: WWII" pp. 95-96:
"Due to the design of the M1s action, both the M1C and M1D located the scope offset to the left of the normal line of sight. As a result of this both rifles incorperated the use of a leather cheek pad with felt inserts to bring the riflemans head and eye in line with the scope. The T-4 Cheek Pad, adopted in October 1944, was designed to be attached to the stock with two wood screws and leather laces"

further in appendix listing:

SNL B-21 Standard nomenclature list, List of all partsof rifle, U.S.,CAL..30 M-1; and Rifle, U.S., Cal..30 M1C and M1D (sniper's); 10 Jan 1945

TB 23-5-7 -U.S. rifle,Cal..30, M1C (Sniper's) 7 March 1944

TM-9-1275 TECHNICAL MANUAL June 17th, 1947

TM-9-1005-222-35 Depo Manual Feb 1966

NOTE****** any type errors are mine and NOT MR. Duffs.
I have a friend down the street with a warehouse full of Garands, and WILl contact him Monday, visually inspect BOTH an M-1C and M-1D and post for you "Pops. you'RE A damn troublemaker, you ARE!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 15:20:45 (ZULU) 


PeteR: I know I'm a pain in the ass, that's why my teenaged wife keeps me around! I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the information and the help! As I'm sure you know by now the big question that I have is "when you use the screws in the holes that are armory drilled in the holes in the pad that line up with them it puts the pad itself high on the comb, is this how it's supposed to be?" Maybe I got a bad pad but it was new in the bag and box right from CMP/DCM along with the rifle and I find it difficult to see how it would be that bad right from them.

Once again thanks for the info and thanks to the only other gentleman that took the time to answer.

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 16:15:41 (ZULU) 


Gramps,

Forgot in the AM frenzy, rifle may have been an arsenal refinish, the holes may have been drilled as a "Field Modification" at some point, MAYBE a different scope n' mount?
In the words of the most sage amongst us, use what works for you to shoot comfortably my friend.

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 17:31:01 (ZULU) 


Gramps,
Scrounged around and finally found my copy of Army TM 9-1005-222-35. It's a reprint and the photos are lousy. It shows the first screw hole drilled in the bottom of the stock 3.75" forward of tthe toe. The second hole is 3.25" forward of the first. When the pad is installed it shows the top seam of the cheek pad as being roughly in line with the top of the stock. It appears that there are pre-cut holes in the pad assembly that fit the hole spacing in the stock. Hope this makes sense.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 22:55:33 (ZULU) 
Gramps,
If you can find a copy of Maj. Gen. Julian S. Hatcher's "The Book of The Garand", there is a good picture of an M1C on page 168 that shows the pad quite well.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 23:07:42 (ZULU) 
Doc: Thanks for the information! The measurements that you gave are the exact same as what's on my rifle. The pad seems to be high when these are used making me wonder if the pad is bad. I have a friend with an un-issued pad that I'm going to look at and match up the holes in mine with tomorrow. Thanks again for the information.

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 23:15:03 (ZULU) 


Gramps--

Just got off the phone with a gentleman that use to work on M1Cs and M1Ds and M21s. If his memory serves him correctly, he told me that quite often the holes in the cheek piece didn't line up with the spec holes in the stock. His way of mounting the cheek piece was (follow at your own risk!!) to wet the leather and mold it to the stock then put the screws through the leather into the pre drilled holes. He also said that they quite often drilled the holes where they damn well pleased. Also stated that the new cheek piece isn't goverment contract and are often different sizes.

Pat II
Pat II <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 01:45:28 (ZULU) 


Gramps!: I'd give Clint McKee at Fulton Armory a call. If he can't tell you eveything you want to know about the M1C cheekpiece I'd be stunned.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 19:49:02 (ZULU) 


ALL: Does anyone have for sale or know where I can get a real issue cheek pad for my M1D? The one I got with the rifle lost a hole and tore so I really need a new one but I won't want other than real issue

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:05:44 (ZULU) 


Gramps: Scott Duff's site lists the following:

T4 Cheek Pad, World War II era K-Line for M1C or M1D. - $85

The url for the page it is listed on is http://www.scott-duff.com/Rifles.htm#Parts

I think that's the correct critter. If not then let me know, there's another site I can check.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 07:37:43 (ZULU) 


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